Mary Daniels’ written testimony from the Salem Witch Trials has sold at auction. We’re always preaching “collecting your ancestors,” but this may have been a little pricey for any descendant!
There’s nothing quite like finding some nearly century old diaries. Sure, it’s great if they were kept by your own ancestors, but since they weren’t, how great that the finders were able to find the keeper’s granddaughter.
Host Scott Fisher and David Allen Lambert, Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society open the show. Fisher opens the conversation talking about how he had the difficult position of having to inform a neighbor, after examining a DNA result, that her father was not her birth father. It’s never an easy thing to reveal, but even worse during Father’s Day week. David then talks about a fascinating feature at Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, New York? a tomb that resembles a mail box of sorts. Find out what it’s about! Then, a hurricane has revealed some shocking discoveries beneath the floor of a Florida wine store. Some listener just might have a connection to this story. Then, David talks about the discovery of a village under a major North American city. Hear where it is and what is being studied.
Then Fisher begins his two part interview with actress Heather Lind, whose AMC television show, TURN- Washington’s Spies is about to begin its fourth season. Heather plays a historical woman named Anna Strong, who, legend has it, hung petticoats behind her home in various orders and colors to signal to spies in boats on Long Island Sound information about British movements on Long Island. For anyone with ancestry in the Revolution, it’s a program that goes a long way in teaching you what live was like in those perilous times. Heather talks about what she has learned about the life of a woman in the Revolution, and the things that may have required of a spy. Heather discusses the challenges of the costumes of the period, and how the cast settled on their respective accents. It’s a fascinating peek into how a period program such as TURN is created, and how it helps us learn about the various times in our history, and then times of our ancestors.
Next, Fisher visits with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com, talking preservation. Tom addresses an important question about how to rid your pictures of mold and how to recover them. (Hint: It’s not a do-it-yourself project!) Tom then reminds you how to do deal with pictures that may be subject to moisture damage.
That’s all this week on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show!
Transcript of Episode 196
Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert
Segment 1 Episode 196
Fisher: And welcome to America’s Family History Show, Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here. I am your Radio Roots Sleuth on the program where we shake your family tree and watch the nuts fall out. And this segment is brought to you by 23andMe.com DNA and boy, great show coming up for you today. I’m excited because I’m a fan of our guest that we’re going to be having on, starting in about eight minutes or so. It’s actress Heather Lind from the AMC TV Series “Turn: Washington Spies.” And Turn: Washington Spies starts their fourth season this very weekend [Saturday June 17]. So this is going to be very fun. It’s their final season because it covers the coming of the end of the Revolutionary War. And if you ever wanted to watch a TV show that makes you understand what it was like for your ancestors who lived through that period, who maybe lived through British occupation in their town, this is the show for you to watch. We’re going to talk to Heather who plays the role of Anna Strong in the series, coming up in just a little bit and then of course Tom Perry at the back end of the show talking preservation once again. Hey, I just want to remind you by the way, don’t forget to sign up for our Weekly Genie newsletter. If you sign up in the month of June you’re eligible for a drawing we’re going to do for a free DNA kit. So you can find that at ExtremeGenes.com or through our Facebook page. But get on there. It is absolutely free, but of course. And now it’s time to check in with Boston and my good friend David Allen Lambert the Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society. Hello David. How are you?
David: I am fine. How’re you doing Fish?
Fisher: You know I’ve got to tell you it’s been kind of a heavy week. I had a neighbor come to me with a DNA thing that was kind of strange. She got a match of a first cousin and this person reached out to her and said, “Well, where do you fit in?” And so they started comparing their trees and she said, “We didn’t have a match anywhere.” She laughed and said, “Must be a mistake!” And I kind of looked at her and said, “No, that’s not likely a mistake. Do you want to find out?” And we started talking about it and I explained to her the possibility that there is what they call the “non-paternal event” on her side of the family and it might be on the other person’s side. She said, “Well, yeah, whatever, you know. Well, yeah let’s do it.” Okay great. So she came over in the middle of the week and we started to sort out the other guy’s tree. And then we started going through her other matches and looked at the family trees of her second cousin matches and wouldn’t you know it? Virtually every tree we looked at had a connection to this first cousin’s maternal line. And we figured out that they did actually share a pair of grandparents and that her father was not her father.
David: Oh wow! Well you know this is just like our friend Bill Griffeth with CNBC with The Stranger in My Genes.
Fisher: Yes, that’s right.
David: It’s a Pandora’s Box we open up. I mean, everybody has that potential. We like to think that there are no paternity events. Maybe it’s not your parents, but it could be your great, great, great grandparents. And all of a sudden your surname is no longer a Bradford, you’re a McGintee.
Fisher: Yeah right, exactly. And that actually happened to me. I don’t believe my third great grandfather was the father of my second great grandfather Robert Fisher. But that’s certainly a whole different scenario than learning that the man that raised you, the man who believed himself apparently that he was your father, wasn’t your father. And so you know, she left saying thank you and I’m thinking, “Thank me for what?” I mean it felt like I just rolled a hand grenade into her life. And so even over the next couple of days it was pretty heavy and we talked a couple of times and she was taking her time trying to get her brain around this and what this means. But yeah, I’m going to loan her my copy of Bill Griffeth’s book because I’m hoping that it will help her to get through it because it’s a new reality you know.
David: Almost like you need a therapy group for people that are realizing that their parents aren’t their parents or their grandparents aren’t their grandparents. And they grew up their whole life thinking that this is a connection.
Fisher: Yes, that’s right. And both parents are deceased by the way so it’s just one of those circumstances. So you know, I’m giving her a little space right now just to sort this all out. Well we’ve got to move on, though, and get to some of our Family Histoire News. Where do we start today David?
David: Well, I’m going to go back to the east coast, to Brooklyn, New York now. I’m a lover of cemeteries and I’m working on my Mass(achusetts) Cemetery book right now. But one of my favorite cemeteries, and you’ve probably been there, who knows, you probably have family there, Green-Wood Cemetery?
Fisher: I do have. [Laughs] In Brooklyn, New York? Yes.
David: Well, in this cemetery there’s an unusual monument. It was just recently put in there as an art installation by Sophie Calle, a French conceptual artist. Now it’s a marble obelisk and inscribed on it is: “Here lie the secrets of the visitors of Green-Wood Cemetery.”
David: Now here’s the catch.
Fisher: [Laughs] Yeah.
David: Here, right behind the stone there’s a slot in the stone, Fish, where you drop in notes, burying your secrets in the cemetery.
Fisher; Oh that’s clever. And then what do they do with it when it gets all full?
David: She says that she is going to take them and burn them all and then make room for others to go in there. The question is, “How quickly will it fill up really speaks to you. How many secrets the visitors have?”
Fisher: [Laughs] Exactly.
David: All right, my next story is regarding witches and cemeteries. But I don’t mean the witches on brooms. I’m talking about witching in a cemetery. Out in Topeka, Kansas there’s a lady who’s helping to find unmarked graves in the cemeteries. Some of these are children’s graves that never had a marked grave stone on them but her efforts are amazing! Did you take a peek at that one?
Fisher: Yes I’m looking at this. I mean it’s like how they go water witching you know, with the two sticks and it pulls it down to the ground and that’s how she’s done this. It’s incredible!
David: Well, one of the things I like to do is do a blogger spotlight and this one shines a star on a blog called Genealogysstar.blogspot.com. And this person has gone on and talked about different things you can find at Brigham Young University. She has a five-part online discussion on how you can use the archives. But what I wanted to bring attention to was a site that a lot of people don’t go to, and that’s Archive Grid. If you go into Google and put in “archivegrid” as one word it will tell you about archives that are near to you. You just basically put in the location or zip code and it will tell you college archives, historical archives, that if you’re on a road trip this summer you can find out where you can go when the family doesn’t want to go to the next water park.
Fisher: [Laughs] Nice.
David: Well, and the last thing I want to mention is that NEHGS is very proud that we have now released Berkshire, Massachusetts Probate Files so you can search them and see them from 1761 to 1900. That’s all I have from Beantown this week, but I’ll talk to you soon as we start to enjoy summer here.
Fisher: All right thanks so much, David. We’ll catch up with you next week. And coming up next, I’m going to talk to actress Heather Lind. She plays Anna Strong on the AMC TV Series “Turn: Washington Spies” which has its season four debut this very weekend [Sat. June 17], coming up in three minutes on Extreme Genes America’s Family History Show.
Segment 2 Episode 196
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Heather Lind
Fisher: And welcome back. It’s America’s Family History Show Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth and this segment is brought to you by FamilySearch.org. You know, as I’ve looked back in my past I’ve got nineteen Revolutionaries between my wife’s side and my side, people who were involved in the Revolution. Some gave service, some donated food to the American troops, some tended to the wounded. Some signed Revolutionary pledges, and some of course were soldiers. So that means there are a lot of unsung heroes in the Revolutionary War, many of them were women. And perhaps one of the most interesting characters who were part of the Revolutionary War was a woman named Anna Strong, from Setauket, Long Island, and she was part of the Culper Spy Ring that’s been written about extensively. And if you watch the AMC series “Turn: Washington Spies” you will see an amazing portrayal of this woman by my next guest, actress Heather Lind, who is on the phone with me right now. And I am so honored to have you on the phone, Heather. I’m a big fan! How are you?
Heather: Oh, thank you, so much. I’m wonderful. I’m so happy to be here.
Fisher: And you’re from the New York area, from upstate as I understand. So this was kind of a natural thing culturally for you and you probably learned a few things yourself about the Revolution by being part of the show the last three years.
Heather: I did. Yes, I have learned a lot. I grew up outside Albany, New York which is the capital and just a little suburb. And the area was pretty immersed in history and my father works at the Albany Institute of History and Art so he was very interested in history, in the way history was portrayed through paintings. So I grew up in a family that was particularly interested in history and in art and in a way really through each other. And my mother was also a teacher so I grew up with an appreciation. But there was so much that I learned having worked on this show and I read the books that the show was originally based on which is called Washington Spies by Alexander Rose. And he’s actually been an executive producer and a writer on the show. So it’s been a real privilege to learn about these people that you just don’t hear stories about so much.
Fisher: Well, Anna Strong, there’s really not much out there about her historically and factually. How did you prepare for this role? Because basically you got to create the character that I think many people are going to relate to now when they hear her name.
Heather: Thank you. I did some research. I read the book that Alex wrote, and I actually, during my audition process, didn’t realize that she was a historical figure. I think I went on about two auditions before I decided, you know what? Maybe I should Google this woman! I’m ashamed to admit I Googled, and actually one of the first things I found about her in a Wikipedia search was these images that school children, I think I believe in Virginia, had drawn of her hanging petticoats on the line, looking over the Long Island Sound.
Heather: And I had never learned about her in school. I’d never researched anything about her, so, just to see that other kids were researching her and learning about her really ignited my curiosity about her and about what we can learn from her.
Fisher: Now, I grew up just across Long Island Sound from Setauket.
Heather: Oh you did?
Fisher: Yeah, in Connecticut. And very much related to this reading about Anna Strong, the legend about her, for those who aren’t familiar with it, is that she hung petticoats in certain orders and colors to give a code to other members of the Culper Spy Ring to send information back to Washington about the movements of the British Troops. And it was a very dangerous thing to do, and ultimately this Anna Strong put herself at great jeopardy to share information that was going to help the cause of the Revolution. By the way Heather, have you ever traced some of your own ancestry? Do you know if you have any Revolutionary roots of your own?
Heather: You know I suspect that I do. My father and his family, actually both sides of my family really tracked their ancestry well. One member of our family we believe came over on the Mayflower. So we know that our roots go way back. I don’t know any specific Revolutionaries from that time, but I suspect we came from that kind of area. My father’s family were in Rhode Island and Rochester, my mother’s family is Canadian. So you know I’m sure that there were some ties but I don’t know any specific, but yeah.
Fisher: Sure. You know, it’s interesting that the role of a spy in war back in those times was considered rather lowly, wasn’t it?
Heather: Yes. It was something you certainly didn’t brag about. I mean I think if you were a good spy nobody knew you were one. [Laughs]
Fisher: [Laughs] Right.
Heather: But yeah, no, it wasn’t considered an honorable profession. It was a time when war was meticulously organized. You know, you see especially in our show when we depict some of the battle scenes you see hundreds of men lined up in red coats marching towards hundreds of men lined up in blue coats, and I think perhaps I’m not sure if the Revolutionary War was the first time that that started to change, but because patriot troops were so eager to fight a lot of them couldn’t afford uniforms and would fight in a little bit of a dirtier more guerrilla kind of manner. And I think that started to change the way the British troops had to fight. So yeah, it was something that you did very honorably, I think very publically if you were soldiers, but to be a spy was something… it seemed to me you had to be a little ashamed of to be a part of, but you look at Setauket, Long Island and they were quartering soldiers in almost every home.
Heather: So you’re surrounded by the enemy and I think at some point people just couldn’t take it any longer and had to find subversive ways to resist.
Fisher: Absolutely. Now, have you ever been to Setauket?
Heather: I have been to Setauket. I think I’ve actually mostly driven through. I haven’t been to Strong Manor which still exists and I haven’t been to the Strong family cemetery where I believe Anna and Selah are both buried. I haven’t been to those places, yet and I really have no excuse. I don’t know why. [Laughs]
Heather: I live in New York City so it’s not very far, but no, I’ve never been.
Fisher: I was going to say isn’t that just a little train ride… isn’t it?
Heather: I know. I really have no excuse! [Laughs]
Heather: I’m ashamed!
Fisher: Oh stop it. Stop it. No, that’s fine. So, I’m thinking back over the last three seasons the various things that you’ve been called on to do, because you’re a real key player in this Spy Ring. I mean, you’ve got love triangles.
Heather: [Laughs] That’s right.
Fisher: You’ve got the fake love with Major Hewlett.
Heather: That’s right.
Fisher: And you’ve got where you had to play the role of a lady of the night with the British officers,’ right? [Laughs]
Heather: That’s right, yes.
Fisher: I mean it’s like, my goodness, that’s a lot of love of real and fake and everything.
Fisher: Is that something that you’ve run into a lot in your career?
Heather: [Laughs] Well, I think that love triangles for one just served television really well.
Fisher: Yeah, you’re right. [Laughs]
Heather: They hold an audience’s attention. It’s great story telling and especially in the center of a story that was so much about choosing sides. I think it really lent itself to telling the story of unrequited love, and sort of a love history between her and Abe. It allowed for that kind of push and pull because the climate politically in that time was so back and forth and so confusing, and families were pitted against each other. I mean it’s not unlike what our country is experiencing now with having such a highly charged political climate.
Heather: Families being torn apart or argue between each other. I think at that time perhaps it was a similar situation. And so yeah, all the love triangles are very dramatic for television.
Fisher: Sure. [Laughs]
Heather: And yeah, I think it’s interesting to play a female spy because they were, particularly in this time period, and women in general were underestimated in so many ways. And never would anyone believe that women had any political interests whatsoever. So, in my experience working on this show, so much intel is gained by for example, flirting with an officer, or serving an officer beer, or just walking down the street and being chaperoned by a man, the man would also get to places he wouldn’t normally be able to go. So I think women have always found ways to be quietly revolutionary. And I’ve really experienced that in the telling of this story.
Fisher: Well, and it’s been interesting to watch as the characters develop. So, for instance in the character of Abraham Woodhull, he was kind of a gentleman farmer but he reached the point where he was willing to kill and able to kill because he had to kill or be killed.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s very interesting to see where people need to draw a line or where people are faced with ultimatums. In any conflict I think people have to have a relationship to those moments in their own lives when they’ve been pushed too far or when they are willing to risk everything.
Heather: My character Anna had a lot of opportunity, thanks to our incredible creator Craig Silverstein, to get to the place where she really had nothing to lose.
Heather: I mean she’s losing so much all the time that I think in those circumstances you start to make very efficient decisions about what’s important to you.
Fisher: Well, and don’t you think that in situations of war sometimes people make decisions that they never would have considered under normal circumstances because of the desperation and the situation.
Heather: Yeah that’s right. And so many people, especially “ordinary” people living in Long Island at the time and their livelihoods were at risk. All their resources of which they had very few, were being given to the British Army or being given to support the British cause. And I think that feeling of not being able to support your family, not being able to earn a living. That really hit people at the core and made them react in really risky ways.
Fisher: I’m talking to Heather Lind. She plays Anna Strong on the AMC series Turn: Washington Spies. It’s Season 4 debut is happening this weekend. [Saturday June 17] It airs Saturday nights. You’ll want to check your local listing to find out what time it’s on but if you want to have an idea what your ancestors lived like during the Revolution, this is the show to watch. Heather I’m going to be recording it, making sure, I always watch it at least twice because there’s always so many things that you have to pick up on a second go round. But can you stick around? We want to talk more about the coming season.
Heather: Of course, I’d love to.
Fisher: All right, we’ll get to it in five minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 3 Episode 196
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Heather Lind
Fisher: And we are back, it’s Extreme Genes America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. I am Fisher your congenial host, and this segment is brought to you by LegacyTree.com. And I’m talking to actress Heather Lind who plays Anna Strong on the AMC series “Turn: Washington Spies.” It’s back for Season Four this weekend, on Saturday in fact. Check your local listings for times near you. It’s all about the spy ring that General Washington started and is actually still studied by spy masters to this very day. Because they started things like the dead drops, invisible ink, and it’s hard to imagine that for 240 years this was going on, Heather, but portrayed brilliantly on your show and it’s got to be fascinating for you.
Heather: It is. It’s been really fascinating to learn about all the spy craft that was being developed, and General George Washington at the time, he had so much to do with it really. I mean, he had the invisible ink, the way they put messages on the insides of hard boiled eggs.
Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs]
Heather: I mean it’s just so creative. It sounds like it would be a failure, but it really worked!
Fisher: Now I know a lot of actors and actresses for whatever the reason is… and it’s a part of it I don’t quite understand… they kind of avoid “period shows” for some reason.
Fisher: And then there are others who kind of gravitate to them for whatever, maybe they have a Shakespearean background. Obviously you’ve embraced it and you’ve enjoyed the experience. Why is that a lot of actors want to avoid period shows?
Heather: I think that’s a great question. I think sometimes in the acting world a lot of what we choose to do and what comes our way has something to do with how we look, obviously the public’s visual discretion.
Heather: I think some actors somewhat unexplainably just look more “period” or look like they may be out of a portrait from the past and I think in some way period work begets more period work.
Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs]
Heather: And I’m thrilled it works that way. I love history and I do see acting as a way to serve the stories of people who came before us.
Fisher: That’s right.
Heather: It’s such a great lesson about the universality of human experience, of how so many things can change and yet nothing changes.
Fisher: Yeah that’s right. That’s right.
Heather: It’s a life experience for me.
Fisher: Well it’s time travel, isn’t it, as an actress?
Heather: That’s right. It’s such a gift to work in television, particularly for AMC. The set designers, the production designers and the set decorators. I mean we have the opportunity of working inside a set that looks like it just came right out of the 18th century. And down to the tiniest crack, down to the ink wells.
Heather: You can let your imagination go. You’re in an environment that supports your imagination so well.
Fisher: Let’s talk about your costumes a little bit here now.
Heather: Um hmm.
Fisher: I’m seeing a lot of tight clothing on the guys. But the corsets, that looks horribly uncomfortable!
Heather: It is actually. You’re right! The corsets did take some time getting used to. I mean it’s extraordinary these were able to physically accomplish what they did.
Heather: As Anna Strong I had to do laundry, which was about basically about beating laundry with a stick. I had to hang laundry. I had to run.
Fisher: [Laughs] Yep.
Heather: I had to get groceries. I had to cook. I mean, I was humbled, as a contemporary woman, just to see the sheer physical acts that they were capable of in those costumes.
Fisher: And you’re running a public house too. I remember the one scene where you had to go and dump the waste of your guests out in front of the place, which reminded me of the smells that must have been in some of these places. I mean, that’s the one thing I’ve really appreciated about this show, is it really makes you appreciate what real life was like back in those times for our ancestors.
Heather: Yes. And really I was thankful we didn’t try to recreate the smells.
Heather: I mean you can see the filth and the dirt but luckily all of us decided to keep showering during the shoot.
Heather: So we didn’t fully appreciate the smell of horse waste all over the streets and all that.
Fisher: Oh my goodness. Now let’s talk about the accents on the show, because this to me has been kind of fascinating. Now, last year I spoke to Sam Roukin who plays John Graves Simcoe on show. He’s the evil character. I mean, a much lower voice, very British.
Heather: Um hmm.
Fisher: But on the show he’s got this high pitched voice. Now Jamie Bell, he’s British but he plays Abraham Woodhull with something of a British accent, but his dad, who’s British, has a very American accent. You, on the other hand, are very American and you have something of a British accent for your character.
Fisher: How do you develop those voices?
Heather: That’s a great question! It seems we all just decided to do something the opposite of what our natural voices are.
Fisher: [Laughs] Yes.
Heather: We had a vocal coach when we started the show four years ago and she spoke with us briefly on how we could try to grasp at what their accents might have sounded like.
Heather: We don’t have any recording of what their voices were like. We assume there was a kind of English, American mix. I mean some people just sounded very Irish. Some people suspect it was kind of like a Middle English situation. So we weren’t sure.
Fisher: You had the Dutch to deal with.
Heather: That’s right. There were many sounds that were coming together all at once and because the country was trying to re-identify itself. I think in some ways the fact that all of our accents sound somewhat disparate was part of the struggle of early America. It was just to find who they were and who they wanted to be and where they all came from. That’s how we justified it.
Heather: But the sad story is, we tried to, at least the four Culper Spy Ring members, Anna Strong, Abe Woodhull, Benjamin Tallmadge and Caleb Brewster, we decided to get together and try to go for something similar because we imagined if we were growing up together as friends we would have a similar sound.
Heather: And most of that came off of Jamie, because Seth Numrich who plays Ben Tallmadge and I are both Americans, then Dan Henshall who plays Caleb Brewster is Australian. So we decided to try and kind of converge our voices towards what Jamie sounds like and he also kind of leans his voice in a kind of West English way. So we listened to some samples of Devonshire and we listened to just the west country in England.
Heather: And tried to, almost like an English accent that had slightly harder R’s and a little bit more of an Irish sound to it. And of course once we decided to do that all of our accents evolved.
Heather: It’s what you do when you’re developing a character. It was actually a really complicated decision we all had to make and we didn’t have a kind of evidence for it. So we all tried to find our characters within some kind of west country sound. But then we have Judge Woodhull who really wanted to do a hard American accent. We all put our personal spin on it I guess. Kevin McNally is a genius and it was great to work with him. The cast itself was an ensemble of such beautifully trained, beautifully disciplined actors, Burn Gorman, Meegan Warner and Sam Roukin and JJ Feild.
Heather: We had an embarrassment of riches!
Fisher: Yes it’s a great cast, there’s no doubt. All right, real quick, give us a summary, it’s the final season coming up we have disposed of Major Andre.
Heather: Um hmm.
Fisher: In fact, one of my ancestors was supposed to be among the captors, at least a cousin of one of my ancestors, David Williams.
Heather: Oh really?
Heather: Oh wow.
Fisher: So it was an interesting scene to watch how he was captured, going, “Oh there’s my guy right there!”
Fisher: But he’s out of the picture now. Now we go to the end of the war, what should we expect this season?
Heather: This season we tell the story about these final dramatic efforts by the patriots to subvert English intelligence and I think we get a lot more very specific spying going on from all our characters. Not only secretly spy but actually take on new identities in order to slow the other side. There’s a lot of role playing and of course we hit through the more historically famous battles at the end of the Revolutionary War. So you’ll see a lot of action, a lot of spying, and it’s really it’s the last chance to win the war. So the urgency was really exciting and despite what the Brits may tell you, we ended up winning!
Heather: I don’t think that’s a spoiler. Even after we won, things were not all tied up and we’re fighting some of the same battles today.
Heather: So it’s messy and exciting and I can’t wait for people to see it.
Fisher: She’s Heather Lind. She’s the actress that plays Anna Strong on Turn: Washington Spies on AMC. Back for season four, the final season, check your local listings for times. Heather, what a pleasure to have you on Extreme Genes, I’m so appreciative.
Heather: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Fisher: We talk preservation with Tom Perry coming up next.
Segment 4 Episode 196
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry
Fisher: And welcome back to America’s Family History Show, Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth. And this segment is brought to you by MyHeritage.com. And we’re talking preservation now with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com, the Preservation Authority! How are you, Tom?
Tom: I’m super duper.
Fisher: [Laughs] Hey, we’ve got a great email here from Kerry Brown. She asks this question, “Tom, I was given your contact information to ask how I should go about cleaning mold off pictures that were given to me. How do I cut away paper that the picture is mounted on? The pictures are about from 1890 to 1910. I’m taking pictures of the photos and uploading them to my FamilySearch files. I’d like to be able to put them in family albums, but I don’t want them to be continuing to rot, any suggestions, please?”
Tom: Wow! [Laughs] There’s a lot of things in here. First, step away from the photos that are mounted. Put those scissors down!
Fisher: Yes, exactly!
Tom: You definitely do not want to cut them apart. What you want to do is, have them professionally scanned by somebody near you or send them to us, because once you get them scanned, then you can make new prints to put in the album that you want to create. And then since they’re already digitized, they’re easy to upload to your website or wherever you want to share them with your family. So don’t cut them. That’s a big no no in this business.
Fisher: Right. [Laughs]
Tom: You have things stuck to photos, don’t cut them, don’t try to take them off. If you have more questions, you can still write to me at AskTom@TMCPlace.com. And also, on your photos that have the mold on them, there’s several things you want to do. First thing, you want to find a professional. This is not something that you want to try your first time out, because there’s a good chance of making a mistake. But even when you take stuff to a professional, whether you’re sending them to us or having somebody in your neighborhood or in your area that do these things professionally, you want to make sure you scan them first. Even if you don’t have a high end scanner, set your scanner as high as you can and scan them, because there’s always a possibility, even though rare, that something might happen to them. So you want to get them scanned, so worst case scenario, at least you have a scan of the moldy pictures. Then any professional place such as ours, what we will do, first we have to see what kind of mold it is. If it’s a water soluble mold, then what we’ll do is, we’ll rewash your print and the mold will go away and then we put it on our special chrome dryer that will make it glossy again.
Fisher: Wow, you’ve got that kind of thing!
Tom: Oh, absolutely, absolutely! And sometimes you’re going to have pictures that have like black mold and certain kinds of mold that’s not water soluble, like maybe somebody spilled some soda on it, and that’s what your mold’s coming from, then we have to use some chemicals to reduce as much of that as we can before we can go to the next step and wash it and get as much as we can off and then re dry it on the chrome dryer, so they’re glossy again.
Fisher: So basically, don’t touch the mold! [Laughs]
Fisher: Let somebody else do this. But don’t let it go too long either, because it can only get worse.
Tom: And if this is something that you can’t deal with right now, what you want to do is what we’ve talked about on previous episodes. You want to make sure there’s no moisture around these pictures. And I don’t see on your email what city you’re coming from, but if you’re coming from someplace in the south, like Alabama where there’s a lot of humidity, you want to make sure you go get some long grain dry rice, put it in cheese cloth, tie it up with thread, not a rubber band and put it in a Ziploc bag along with those photos to try to absorb any moisture, or if you bought a TV or any electronics recently and you see these little bags that say “Do not eat,” they do the same thing.
Tom: Throw it in there.
Tom: And that’ll absorb it. If you have some that are really, really old and probably have already absorbed a lot of moisture, you can put them in a toaster oven for about five minutes and that will take the moisture out, and they’re just like brand new and you can use them over and over and over again.
Fisher: Wow, No kidding! I’ve never heard that one before.
Tom: Oh yeah, I always save them. Any time I get electronics, I have a little bag that I always throw those things into for people that come into our store that need something like that and I loan them to them. Plus if you don’t have anything like that, this will sound really funny, but it’s true. You can go to a hearing center like Belltone and they have these little aluminum things that are made to take moisture out of hearing aids. And do the same thing. Put it in the bag with your photos or whatever and it will take the moisture out.
Tom: So a different business can make things that are good for us.
Fisher: What a minute, wait a minute! Do you know anybody who’s actually gone to Belltone to get that and save their pictures?
Tom: Nope! I know of nobody that has done it.
Tom: But I know they exist.
Fisher: All right, Tom, we’re going to come back in three minutes with another listener question on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 5 Episode 196
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry
Fisher: It is our final segment of Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com for this week. Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth. We’re talking preservation as always with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. Tom, this email comes from Mary Spasek, and she said, “You know, quite a while back, you were on Extreme Genes and talked about an app that would scan a page in a photo album, but automatically separate it into individual pictures.” I remember that. She said, “Please let me know what that was. Thanks, Mary.”
Tom: Well, a good way to do this is to go to ExtremeGenes.com, you can type in “picture separation,” any kind of word that you want and it will help you find it, because all of our episodes are all totally searchable on our ExtremeGenes.com website and also on Google.
Fisher: Oh absolutely. All you’d have to do is put in “Extreme Genes” in quotes and then put in probably search terms like “apps” “Tom Perry” in quotes and then you’ll see all kind of things that will come up that will maybe help you find the episode you were looking for.
Tom: And just as a reiteration of what it was, if you have a Kodak scanner, they’re high end scanners, they’re like about $3500, so most people probably don’t own one, but a lot of the family history libraries do have them, because Kodak has a program where they get as many as they can into libraries. And if they have that, they should have that app. When you go in and start scanning your photos, you go into settings and you’ll find a place that says “enable separation.” And you don’t want to do this for all of your pictures, because that’s going to assume every single photo you want to go in and take more photos out of it.
Tom: So you want to do your album pages last. Go in and enable this particular app, and then when it does it, it’ll go in and it’ll do its best job of cropping the separate pictures, but then it gives you the ability to go in and fine tune them, make them better. If you’re in a place where you don’t a have a library or access to a library that has that, like I know a lot of people go to Utah because of the big family history library there. And I know they have them there. Also, if you go to EZ Photo Scan, which there’s a link on our page, on TMCPlace.com, they will rent them to you for about $300 a week.
Tom: So there’s a lot of different ways you can do that. Just make sure if you do rent them, you mention that you need the flatbed scanner and you want to make sure you are able to enable that app, so then you can go and do those things. It makes it so much easier.
Fisher: And it is reunion season, so this is a really great time to do that. And these are really terrific scanners.
Tom: In fact, a lot of times we’ve run into situations where you have grandparents who will not let those photos out of their hands. That’s fine. Let grandma hold it in her handbag, walk up to the scanner, she can feed the scanner herself or have somebody assist her, hand her back the pictures, they were never out of her sight. And so then she should have nothing to complain about.
Fisher: Right. [Laughs] Absolutely!
Tom: So you know, one thing that’s important, I got an email just the other day from a listener that said, “You always are talking about your home video studio and the DVA. It sounds like you’re trying to put competition out there against yourself.”
Tom: And I say, well, yeah, that’s true. However, you know, I’m not possessive of it. I want to share my knowledge and experience of preservation to everyone who wishes to participate in furthering the work of preservation, just like you do, Fish.
Fisher: Well, absolutely. The nature of the show here is trying to share what we know. I mean, I’m sure we could all monetize everything we know better. But the point of this is getting everybody involved in their family history. It’s going to make the world a little better, because right now, we need that.
Tom: Oh absolutely, no question about it. My goal is to have everybody get everything preserved. I don’t care who it is, whether it’s somebody across the street from me or down the road. If you can save one family’s memories and then they have a flood or fire or something and everything’s on the cloud and so they’re okay about it, that’s the only thing that matters to me. I want to get this stuff preserved. That’s why on the show we say, hey, if you can get somebody to do it locally, that’s fine. If you can’t find anybody, we’re happy to do it for you, but if you can do it yourself or find somebody locally, that’s what you need to do.
Fisher: Yeah, that’s a great way to go, Tom. All right, thanks so much. And by the way, if you have a question for Tom Perry, it’s easy to reach him. Just email him at AskTom@TMCPlace.com, or you could go to his Twitter feed @AskTomP, and he’ll respond there and everybody can benefit from his answers. So thanks for coming on, Tom. We’ll see you again next week.
Tom: My pleasure.
Fisher: And that is our show for this week. Thanks so much for joining us. Hey, if you missed any of it, catch the podcast on iTunes, iHeart Radio or ExtremeGenes.com, TuneIn Radio. And don’t forget to sign up for our Weekly Genie newsletter, it’s absolutely free. In the month of June, if you sign up, you’re eligible for a free DNA kit we’re going to be giving away next month. Hey, I hope you’re making great discoveries. Thanks for joining us. We’ll talk to you again next week. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we’re a nice, normal family!
Betsy Roddy is the last living descendant of the founder of Father’s Day. And she is proud of her great grandmother’s efforts to make the holiday official.
In New York, a genealogist who helps people inherit fortunes from large estates is being accused of forging documents. Read all about it!
Imagine! Mary Ann Kester learned how to “witch” for graves in a genealogy class. As a result she has performed an amazing service for a local cemetery.
The infamous “Trail of Tears,” over which Native Americans were forced to leave the Southeast for “Indian Territory,” west of the Mississippi, will soon be receiving historic markers in Arkansas. Thousands died on the trek that began with the Indian Removal Act in the 1830s.
Host Scott Fisher opens the show with David Allen Lambert, the Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. The guys begin with a story about a family that chose a very funny Hallmark birthday card for their father. But a close examination of the photo on the card caused their jaws to drop! Find out why. Then, David tells us about an organization called “Reclaim the Records.” It’s a non-profit that’s out there using Freedom of Information requests to make public important records that haven’t yet made their way onto the internet. They’re working over states throughout the country and have just announced another major database has been “won.” Hear all about it. David then shares his excitement in locating descendants of people found in photographs left anonymously to David in a bag a year or so ago. Find out why this was such a meaningful experience for the recipient. Our Blogger Spotlight this week is shining on ThePastFinder.wordpress.com. Give it a click and see whose it is!
Then, Fisher begins his two part visit with Paul Woodbury, the DNA specialist from LegacyTree.com. This is a second edition of “Most Common DNA Questions.” Everybody’s doing it? learn a little more about it.
Then, Fisher and Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com talk preservation. Tom’s on the war path over a man with ten year’s worth of photos and memories on his phone, but doesn’t have a cloud account to back it up. Then, he talks the significance of PDFs in writing up your family history.
That’s all this week on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show!
Transcript of Episode 195
Host Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert
Segment 1 Episode 195
Fisher: And welcome to America’s Family History Show. It’s Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here the Radio Roots Sleuth on the program where we shake your family tree and watch the nuts fall out. This segment of the show is brought to you by FamilySearch.org. And we are loaded up today with DNA. Well I think we all are, right? We’re going to be talking to Paul Woodbury. He’s the DNA Specialist from LegacyTree.com in a two-part visit where we talk to him about some of the most common questions he hears all the time, and certainly questions I get as well about DNA… all kinds of stuff that you’re going to find interesting and informative as you prepare to take your DNA test or prepare to analyze the information and the results you got back. So that’s good stuff coming up a little bit later on. Hey, and I also want to remind you that during the month of June, if you sign up for our Weekly Genie Newsletter which is absolutely free, your name will be in the hopper for a free DNA kit. We’re going to be giving it out and announcing on July 10th so sign up at ExtremeGenes.com or the Extreme Genes Facebook page, the Weekly Genie newsletter. Right now it’s time to head out to Boston and my good friend David Allen Lambert. He is the Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. How are you David?
David: Well I’ll tell you this is my birthday month. I won’t say how old I am but I’m hoping to get you know, a couple of birthday cards. But nothing compares to the birthday card that this person got in a store for their grandfather out in Kansas. They got this greeting card, Fish, and on it is an old fashioned family group photo. And as the grandfather looked at the picture he recognized his own relative.
David: Lo and behold, somebody at Hallmark had a person buying old photos and it just happened to be this person’s family. The chances of that are probably better to win the lottery.
Fisher: Oh yeah, no question, that’s crazy. What did the card say?
David: Quote, “We haven’t seen this much excitement since Aunt Lulu was picked up by a tornado, set down nude in the middle of the hog auction and sold to the highest bidder.”
David: Who knows, maybe it’s been lifted from somebody’s family letters! [Laughs]
Fisher: Isn’t that funny? And you know the odd thing about it is after they discovered all this they went back to the store and they bought out all the copies of it, took them and then framed them and shared them with other relatives. Isn’t that great?
David: I think it’s wonderful. It almost wants to make you want to make up a similar card for your own family as a joke.
Fisher: Right. [Laughs]
David: [Laughs] Well one thing that isn’t a joke is this exciting news. I was on the phone with Brooke Ganz from Reclaim the Records. This is a group that’s been legally working to try to get records released from different states. And one of the black holes for genealogists has been getting records from the State of New York. Now, New York unlike a lot of states started recording vital records in the 1880s and the problem is the death indexes aren’t online, so you think of Ancestry or FamilySearch or places like that. They’ve tried for years to get it. Well this group succeeded. And now on Archive.org, by simply putting in New York State death index and put in a year between 1880 and 1956 our listeners will be able to pull up the actual index. It includes the town, the name of the full date of death and a certificate number. This is amazing!
Fisher: Oh this is huge. And you know they actually went and sued through the Freedom of Information Act to get these public records made public and available.
David: My hats off to them because they’re able to do things a lot of us genealogists have been trying to get for years.
Fisher: And by the way, you’ve got to go online and check this out on ExtremeGenes.com. You’ll find the link to it there. And you can become part of a group and help their legal efforts to make public records public and available.
David: Well, Fish, you know the other day I was thinking to myself, “Wouldn’t it be nice to buy a summer place?” Well, I wish I had known this beforehand. In Aladdin, Wyoming they just had an auction on June 2nd where they sold off 30 acres of land. Now, you wouldn’t think so much about it, but the 30 acres is the whole town.
David: It includes a post office, a general store, a variety of other buildings, a family home, and it was expected to get $1.5 million.
Fisher: Wow! What a bargain!
David: Sold for a third of that, for $500 000.
Fisher: $500 000? [Laughs]
David: So now someone actually owns a town, legally, and has a post office. I just think it’s a wonderful thing.
Fisher: That’s crazy.
David: I would’ve turned it into such a tourist stop. You know it’s funny if I go to yard sales occasionally and I see the old family photos, but a strange thing happened about a year and a half ago. Someone at my public library dropped off a bag with about a hundred photographs from the early 1900s right to instamatic photos that apparently were found in a trash bin. But someone put a post it note to give them to me. Still don’t know who they were, but there was enough identification on it that I decided I should look into it eventually. Well just like anything in genealogy I put it aside. Well the other day while cleaning I found the bag, decided that these aren’t my family. They’re not even connected to my town. I wanted to find who they were. And about an hour after being on the internet I found the granddaughter of the woman who these photos belonged to.
Fisher: How cool is that!
David: She was over the moon happy. She had no family photos. This included all the wedding pictures from the 1930s of her grandmother and grandfather, pictures of her great grandmother she’d never even seen before and they had names on them. I want someone to find a bag of my family photos and send them to me. It’s a “karma” thing. So I’m hoping that that happens eventually.
Fisher: Exactly. Now listen before you get into your blogger spotlight, could I take it this week?
David: Yeah, sure! Why not?
Fisher: All right so I want to put our blogger spotlight on a place called The Past Finder. And every week of course we focus on somebody who’s writing about genealogy. The Past Finder is authored by someone named David Allen Lambert and it’s a brand new blog site.
Fisher: And David, I love it. And I love the name. It’s ThePastFinder.wordpress.com. And you’ve been writing about how you got started in genealogy and all kinds of fun stuff. So we’re looking forward to success with that.
David: Yeah, I’ve had a number of people over the years say, “Why don’t you blog?” And I said, Well, I’ll get around to it eventually. So I decided to do it and if you want to find why it’s called The Past Finder, look at my first post. Well, heading off to Bellevue, Washington to do a little lecturing over the weekend. I’ll check in next week, Fish. And just remember, if you’re not a member of NEHGS, you can join by using the check out code “Extreme” on AmericanAncestors.org.
Fisher: All right, thanks so much David and have a great trip! And we’ll talk to you again next week. And coming up next, we’re going to talk to Paul Woodbury the DNA Specialist from LegacyTree.com about the most common questions he gets on DNA. That’s in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 2 Episode 195
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Paul Woodbury
Fisher: Hey, we love talking DNA at Extreme Genes. It’s America’s Family History Show. I am Fisher, your Radio Roots Sleuth and this segment is brought to you by 23andMe.comDNA and we’ve got my friend Paul Woodbury back on the line from LegacyTree.com. He is their DNA Specialist. How are you Paul? Good to have you back.
Paul: I am doing great. Thanks so much for having me, Fish.
Fisher: You know, we had a segment a month or so ago where we started getting into some of the common questions that you hear all the time about DNA. I mean it went so fast it’s like okay… we’ve got to visit this one more time. And the list of questions seems to have grown just a little bit.
Paul: Yes. And really, it’s interesting because when we get questions about DNA, predominantly it’s about ethnicity. People are really interested in ethnicity. They’re interested in finding out about those percentages, about the add mixture. And ethnicity is great. Ethnicity does bring lots of people into the DNA testing pools.
Paul: It’s a great motivator for bringing people into really helping us grow these databases, to individuals who are interested in family history and finding out ethnicity. However, we can lose the main focus on genealogy is we focus so much on ethnicity. And so really, the majority of the questions we get are ethnicity, ethnicity, ethnicity, and there is so much more you can do with your DNA test results beyond just ethnicity.
Fisher: All right. Well, let’s get to the most obvious one. First of all, people get results they don’t expect. For instance, my buddy whose grandfather was a full Italian and when he got his results he had 3% Italian and some large percent of Greek ancestry. What do we tell people like this?
Paul: So, with the ethnicities that you get, I look at ethnicities as informative regarding the first three or four generations of your ancestry. If you have predominantly New England ancestry, you’re probably going to get lots of ethnicity from the British Isles, from Western Europe, and because it’s been so long ago that your ancestors immigrated to the US, it’s really hard to differentiate between all of those North Western European countries. Each of the companies are very good at distinguishing between broad geographic categories. Like Native American versus European versus African. It’s when you get into some of those populations within broader categories that it gets a little bit interesting.
Paul: And it’s a bit difficult to distinguish between what is Western European, versus British, versus Scandinavian.
Fisher: And I think we talk a little about Eastern France gets a lot of Germanic DNA, and Southern France gets more Spanish and Portuguese DNA mixed in. So the question is, what is French, right?
Paul: Exactly. And so, with the different companies you’re going to get the different ethnicity estimates because they’re using different reference populations, they’re using different algorithms to look at those, and so really, when you’re looking at ethnicity results you don’t want to get caught up on the details. Is the information that you’re seeing representative broadly of your general ancestry? If you have a Danish father and you have 5% Scandinavian DNA, that might be an anomaly that you want to pay attention to.
Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs]
Paul: If you have an Italian grandmother and you only have 4% Italian DNA that would be an anomaly you would want to focus on. Or the other way, if you have 50% Italian DNA and you only have one Italian grandmother, then you would be wanting to focus in on those major anomalies. I would not consider a variation of a few percentage points, say 10 to 15 percent an anomaly. And that’s because the amount of DNA that you inherit from your great grandparents is going to be variable. You can expect to see a little bit of variation within those populations that you are inheriting DNA from.
Fisher: All right. Now Paul, I recently shared some DNA test results with a different company and I wound up with like 75% Scandinavian while the other company gets me close to 50. I know myself to be 50% Scandinavian. What can account for that difference from one big company to another?
Paul: So, with Scandinavian we always have a little bit of a challenge. And that’s because a lot of these ethnicity results are looking at mutations along your DNA and they’re looking at the incidents of those mutations in different populations. While many of those mutations are representative of populations from thousands of years ago, and so the combination of those mutations will sometimes result in higher levels of expected DNA in a certain population. In a case of Scandinavia, we’ve got the Vikings coming down into the British Isles all throughout Western Europe, and they had a very strong genetic footprint on the genetic history of Europe. We also see with the Vikings, I mean Normans are Vikings.
Paul: They’re Norsemen or “northmen” and they were settled in that part of France. And then they came over and took over Britain. So you have a huge influence, genetically from Scandinavia throughout Western Europe and the British Isles and Ireland. So, with Scandinavian in particular, a lot of the times we will get higher than normal estimates particularly if the other part of your family tree comes from Britain or from Western Europe.
Fisher: And that’s the case for myself so I’m glad you clarified that. Because I hear this question all the time coming to me and I love to defer to people like you. All right, so let’s move past ethnicity. I think we may have even repeated a little material that we’ve talked about in the past but I think it’s certainly worth repeating. What are some of the questions you hear particularly often Paul?
Paul: So, another question that we often will get and that people will come to us with is, “I look in my genetic match list and I don’t recognize any of these people.” [Laughs]
Fisher: [Laugh] Yeah.
Paul: And I think that that’s really key. And with the questions that we get, they are predominantly dealing with ethnicity but occasionally we will get these gems that can really reveal a little bit more about how you actually use autosomal DNA for genealogical research. Some of the questions that we should be asking rather than, “Why do I have 25% Scandinavian versus my 50% that I should?” Really, the questions we should be asking are, “Who are your closes genetic cousins? And how are they related to you?”
Paul: And that’s really a starting point of how you get to use your DNA test results for your family history. And so, it’s a really good idea to go into your DNA match list and just to start working from the beginning. Who is this closest genetic cousin that I have? Once you identify that person, that information can be really helpful and once you identify their exact genealogical relationship to you, you can use that information to then filter and organize the rest of your results. Because you can use that information to say, “Oh, well I know how they’re related to me.”
Paul: And I’m not really interested in researching my paternal grandfather’s family right now. So knowing that I am related to them through my paternal grandfather I can then identify all the people that also match that person.
Fisher: Sure, that makes sense.
Paul: And then kind of exclude them from my analysis. Then I can really focus on those people that are most important for helping me to make genealogical discoveries.
Fisher: Now, a couple of years ago I was helping a dear friend of mine who was adopted and because we were able to determine what are birth mother’s line looked like, then we were able to exclude those lines as we went to work trying to identify the birth father, and it worked brilliantly. And we were able eventually to come up with both the birth father and the birth mother who were both deceased and find a living half sibling on both sides that she now has a great relationship with.
Paul: Yeah. And so really, working with those close matches to identify how they possibly could be related to you, is a great first step to using autosomal DNA test results in the exploration of your family history.
Fisher: Well, that’s great advice and it’s something people need to think about as they get into it. The one thing that bothers me though about a lot of my matches is they haven’t put in any trees, or they lock it up and you can’t access that information. And then they don’t want to respond you know? [Laughs]
Paul: That’s another excellent question that we should be asking ourselves. [Laughs] Who is this person that is a close genetic cousin to me and who has no tree, has no information and who won’t respond? And there are some great approaches that you can take to exploring genetic matches. For example, there are currently four major autosomal DNA databases.
Paul: If you look at the username of the person that you’re trying to figure out who they are, a lot of the time people use usernames from their email address. They may use the same username in multiple social media accounts. So, if you perform a search on Spokeo for that username, then it will pull up social media accounts associated with that username.
Fisher: That’s right.
Paul: You can find out the name of that person. If they have a unique name you can perform public records searches for that individual. You can also use that username and perform a search to find out if they have published any information on genealogy forums. They may not have published a tree but they may have posted on a genealogy forum and said, “I’m searching for information about my third great grandmother so and so.”
Fisher: Sure. [Laughs]
Paul: And using that information you can then trace the descendants of that person and identify the likely identity of that genetic cousin who just will not respond to your quests for collaboration.
Fisher: Or you could simply find an obituary from a grandparent and now you’re back a couple of generations and suddenly you know, you just do the normal stuff and you can figure out who they are.
Paul: Exactly. And another tip that I have found is, a lot of the times they will not have a tree attached to their test results, but if you search for their username at any other genealogy companies you may be able to find a tree that they have made but they just haven’t attached to their results.
Fisher: Yeah, that’s great advice. All right, we’re going to take a break here coming up in just a few moments here Paul, what kind of questions you want to cover here in the next segment?
Paul: I’d like to talk about looking at how people are related to each other, I think that’s really key and it’s often overlooked. So, identifying groups of related individuals and then estimating how you might be related to those groups. And then the other thing that I would recommend would be, if you take a DNA test and you show up as a genetic cousin to a known relative and it says that you’re second cousins once removed and you say, “Oh look, DNA proved that we share these common ancestors.” I think it’s important that people evaluate the amount of shared DNA that they have with their close relatives to determine if there’s any possibility that their relationship is a half relationship versus a full relationship.
Fisher: Interesting. And there are reasons for that and we’ll get into it coming up next in five minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 3 Episode 195
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Paul Woodbury
Fisher: And we are back, talking DNA on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth and this segment is brought to you by MyHeritage.com. We’re talking to Paul Woodbury the DNA specialist with LegacyTree.com. And we’re talking about the most common questions Paul gets, and maybe I’ll this one at you myself Paul. Recently I was looking at a new DNA result that showed up as a match for me on one of the major companies. And it came in as a third cousin, which is exactly where it should have been. I’ve been in touch with his sister for probably 15-20 years now. She’s also a third cousin, but she came in with her DNA results as a fourth cousin to me. How do you explain that?
Paul: All right, so with siblings, each sibling inherits fifty percent of their autosomal DNA from each parent, but they’re going to inherit slightly different portions of their parent’s DNA. Siblings will share about fifty percent of their DNA in common with each other, meaning that they twenty five percent of the same DNA from each of their parents.
Paul: So with these differences of DNA that siblings will inherit, sometimes a sibling will get more segments or a larger portion of DNA from a specific ancestor than the other one that is common. Now, when they are estimating the relationship between two individuals, they have certain thresholds that they use to say, “Okay, if a person matches another individual with more than this amount of DNA then we consider them to be a third or fourth cousin. If they share less than that amount of DNA then they get bumped into the next category where they’re saying, “Okay maybe they’re a fourth to sixth.” Depending on if they are right on that threshold then they can get bumped from one category to the other. And that’s not necessary indicative that one has a half relative and the other isn’t, it’s just that one individual inherited slightly more DNA than the other.
Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs]
Paul: But that brings up an important point of DNA analysis, in that just because you share DNA with a proposed relative doesn’t necessarily prove a relationship. For example, if I take a DNA test, my second cousin takes a DNA test and we come back as genetic cousins. What it doesn’t prove is if we are full second cousins. What you want to do in particular for close relationships is that you want to go in and look at the exact amount of DNA that you share. Each of those levels of shared DNA are typical of ranges of relationship. So, if I’m sharing two hundred centimorgans of DNA then that is much indicative of a second cousin relationship versus if I’m only a hundred centimorgans, that’s indicative of a second cousin once removed or a half second cousin relationship.
Paul: So you want to check and see how much DNA you’re sharing. You can find tables on what the expected levels of shared DNA for different proposed relationships are. At the International Society of Genetic Genealogy, that’s ISOGG.org. And they have a table that describes what you would expect for different levels of relationships. Another great resource for interpreting and evaluating your shared DNA is the Shared Centimorgan Project headed by Blaine Bettinger. And they have some studies into looking at exactly how much DNA different known levels of relationships are expected to share.
Fisher: Interesting. Now, I have a half second cousin, somebody who came through my great grandfather but not my great grandmother. We had different great grandmothers. But he came in as a fourth cousin which I thought was interesting at the time the results came through. If we get into these shared levels, might that give us a little more insight why there’s such a difference?
Paul: Yes. When we have relationships, you need to recognize that if there’s a half second cousin for example, then with half relationships what I like to do is just add one more generation and that’s what you’re expecting to share DNA with.
Paul: So if it’s a half second cousin you’d expect a second cousin once removed. And once you get to about that level there’s a little bit of overlap of what we expect to see between a third cousin versus a fourth cousin, or a fourth cousin versus a third cousin once removed. There are some levels of relationships that have very specific and discreet probabilities of relationships that have very clear ranges of what we would expect. Once you get further out, the amount of DNA that you share with a fourth cousin could be exactly the same as the amount of DNA you share with a fifth cousin or a sixth cousin. So it gets a little more messy the further you get out.
Paul: But particularly for those close relationships, you should definitely be evaluating, “Is this what I expect given our proposed relationship?”
Fisher: So would you find a fourth cousin level to be reasonable for a half second cousin?
Paul: For that level I would have to look at it, and you have to look at the exact amount of shared DNA, because the fourth cousin designation of some of the companies can range anything less than seventy centimorgans. But seventy centimorgans could be a second cousin once removed or could be a third cousin, so it’s a little hard. It may be that you inherited less DNA in common.
Paul: But, if they’re sharing only twenty centimorgans then there might be something that we want to take a look at in that lines, to see if there’s a possibility of misattributed paternity somewhere along those lines.
Fisher: Sure, absolutely. All right, what are some of the other common questions you get, Paul? We’ve still got a little time.
Paul: All right, so another common question that we get is, “How can I use my DNA test results for genealogy? And how can I make genealogical discoveries a little bit further back with that? And really I think that the key to making genealogical discoveries a little further back is what I call genetic networking. It’s just identifying how all of my genetic cousins are related to each other. Each of the DNA testing companies provides that information to researchers. They will indicate what matches also match your matches.
Paul: So if I’m looking at my second cousin, my genetic cousin and I look and see all of this list of other matches that share DNA with him then I know that those other matches are probably related through the same ancestral couple that we share in common.
Fisher: Sure. Is that the DNA Circles type of concept that Ancestry is doing right now?
Paul: Exactly! DNA Circles and New Ancestral Discoveries are excellent examples of DNA networking of identifying networks of related individuals that you can group together and say, “These individuals are likely related through this through this common ancestral couple.” Now Ancestry does that with their entire database, but you can do that with your own test results as well and just by looking at those in common with matches and identifying who matches who, you can begin to identify groups of individuals, and then you can assign those groups to portions of your family tree. Once you do that, then you can identify a group of matches who have no known relationship to your family and who maybe all have ancestry from an area where one of your ancestors came from. As you explore that group of matches and identify how they’re related to each other you can identify likely relatives of your ancestors and sometimes even get ancestral candidates to then trace forward in time and identify descendents who were your ancestors.
Fisher: Right. I just wish I had paid more attentions to science in high school! [Laughs]
Fisher: I’m listening to this going, “Wow!” I’m sure we’re blowing a lot of people’s minds about what it might take to really get in deep in the weeds with DNA, but nonetheless a lot of people are doing exactly that and it’s a whole other element to family history and genealogical research. Paul thanks so much for coming on, and I know there are more questions we will have to get to on a future show. We hope you have a great summer. We’ll talk to you again soon.
Paul: All right, thank you.
Fisher: All right, Paul Woodbury from LegacyTree.com. And coming for you next, Tom Perry, talking preservation on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 4 Episode 195
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry
Fisher: All right, I can already see smoke coming out of the ears of Tom Perry, our Preservation Authority. Hey, its Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth. And this segment of the show is brought to you by LegacyTree.com. Yeah, we’re talking preservation. Tom, what is on your mind? What has got you so beet red?
Tom: Oh, it’s just crazy! I was just talking to somebody off the street the other day and I started talking about family history. He pulls out his Samsung Android and says, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got thousands of pictures on this over the last so many years and I’m just worried what happens if I lose this.” I stop and said, “As long as everything’s up in the cloud, you’re fine. When you get your new device, you just download it.” And he goes, “I don’t do the cloud.”
Fisher: [Laughs] Now why wouldn’t he do the cloud?
Tom: [Laughs] I don’t know. It’s like saying, “I don’t drink water,” you know?
Fisher: Is this somebody afraid of the security side of things or something? One of those people who say, “They’ll break into the cloud!”
Tom: No. Not really. I mean, I ran into people that just haven’t done it. And it’s one of those things you need to do now, whether its preserving your old photos or whatever. But something as easy as a phone, all you need to do is, go set up a cloud account, and one I like is Dropbox, and they give you so much for free.
Tom: So, set up your device to automatically, anytime you’re near WiFi, it just automatically starts uploading. So the first thing you want to do, you want to make sure, you know, it’s at a WiFi at home, so you can start uploading it quickly.
Tom: But anytime you’re taking pictures out in a cemetery away from phone service or whatever, as soon as you get close to WiFi, it will automatically start uploading them so they’re all there. So, like, when I bought phones, it’s usually not because one crashed, it just started getting old and slow. And so, when I get a new phone, I just download everything down to my new phone, and it’s just like nothing ever went away, it’s all right there.
Fisher: Sure, of course.
Tom: But of the neater things about it is, not only is it in the cloud, it gives us the convenience when we get to work, if we need to access a photo or any kind of documents, they’re there on our work computer. If we’re home, they’re there on our home computer. Any time you’re hooked up to the internet, you can access your stuff that’s in the cloud. And it’s free!
Tom: And if you have a ton of stuff, it’s still pretty cheap.
Fisher: Yeah, it’s the greatest deal of the 21st century. There’s no question. Free storage or cheap storage. I mean, really, if you want to expand for instance on Google Drive, it’s just two bucks a months to get to the next level or something like that. It’s crazy!
Tom: We have terabytes worth of information on ours, because we have all of our own stuff, we have a lot of clients that want us to upload stuff to their Dropbox, so it’s pretty big. And I don’t think we pay $100 a year, and we have way more than anybody’s ever going to need.
Fisher: You know, and this is one of those simple things to step up to if you’re not particularly savvy when it comes to technology. The cloud is an easy thing that pretty much anybody can show you how to do, show you how to work, and again, its free!
Tom: Oh yeah! And you know, everybody says, “Oh, there’s a hook. Its free for 30.” No! Dropbox has X amount of storage, which is fine for probably 75% of the population, and it is totally free. And like I say, you know, as much as we do, I think we pay $100 a year, which is hardly anything. And like you say, anybody can teach you how to do it. You know whether you’re AT&T or T Mobile or whoever you’re with, go into that service and say, “Hey, can you show me how to do that?” And nine out of ten times, if they’re good people, they’re just going to take it, set it up for you, hand it back to you and say, “You’re rocking and rolling!”
Fisher: There you go. It’s that easy. And then you could save it. Because you know, you really think about how easy it would be to lose it. The guy you were talking about with the cell phone, you lean over a toilet and it goes into the water, it done! Years and years worth of photographs and memories and whatever else.
Tom: You know, and we’ve talked about ways that if it falls in the toilet, there might be a way to recover it by putting it in a Ziploc bag with uncooked rice…
Fisher: Well who wants to go through that!?
Fisher: I mean, really!?
Tom: Exactly. I mean, who want to go though that? You’re exactly right. I’ve got another friend that told me last week that they dropped their phone in a pond and they didn’t have the cloud either, so I mean, there’s no way to recover that, you know, unless they want to go scuba diving for it.
Fisher: [Laughs] And even then, is it going to work after you do the whole rice treatment? Forget about it. The guy you’re dealing with is not thinking this thing through very well obviously.
Tom: Right. And it’s not a money problem either, because I mean, this person is doing very well. If he went the $100 a year type thing, it’d be nothing for him. But he doesn’t even need to do that. You just need to get off your tail and get it done.
Fisher: All right, what do you want to talk about in the next segment here, Tom, now that you’re got that off your chest?
Tom: Let’s talk about a way to preserve some of your PDFs and some fun things to do with PDFs.
Fisher: All right, coming up in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show.
Segment 5 Episode 195
Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry
Fisher: And we are back, its America’s Family History Show, Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth along with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com, the Preservation Authority. And now that Tom has let it all out in the previous segment, it is time to get down to some other business, and that is talking about PDFs. And this is such a great, simple thing for your use in family history.
Tom: Absolutely. I can almost guarantee anybody that has a computer out there has at least one PDF. And people don’t understand how powerful those are. PDF stands for Portable Document Format. So it’s something that’s very portable. And the quality nine out of ten times is good. You’re not going to want to make giant banners and posters from them generally, but I know people that do. It’s mostly a way to store things. And the neat thing that people don’t know about PDFs, say somebody sends you a file that’s a PDF that, you know, Aunt Martha’s family history and you’re going through it and maybe see and remember some things right and some things are a little bit wrong or inaccurate, you can go and do if you have PDF Pro, which is an editor, which isn’t very expensive, if you have the cloud service, you get it for free, its included with it. And all you have to do is, go over there and there’s a little tab on the right side that says “tools”, bring it down and it allow you several different things. You can actually go click on the text and it will say “do you want to make this so you can edit it?” and if you want to do that, just click it, and it will go through the entire document or just one page if you want to do just one page, and make it recognizable, so that you can go and click and then in red next to whatever’s in black and say, you know, “This is really Aunt Ethyl. This wasn’t Grandma Glynn that did this.”
Tom: So you can make notes on it. Another thing you can do is, if for some reason it’s a locked document and you can’t actually change the lettering for some reason, somebody locked it, it will let you go in and add outside text, put a text box that you can put on it. You can go in and highlight areas. If you want this to be highlighted in yellow for somebody that’s reading through it, this is something that’s very important. You know, there’s all kinds of different things you can do. And once it can be recognized that way, you can go and make it searchable. So if you have thirty pages of a journal or a hundred pages of a journal and you want to find out, “Oh, what were Dad’s thoughts when I was born?” you can go and type in your name or birth or your birth date and it will go and find that, then you can read what Dad wrote in his journal the day you were born.
Fisher: That’s amazing. And you know, PDFs are largely used to preserve Word files. For instance, if you were to type up a history in Word as most of us do and you want to send it to somebody else, typically if you sent it in Word format, it gets changed somehow, mixed up a little bit.
Fisher: So we save it as PDFs, and then it goes and it holds its place, although I will say this, I went to publish my mother’s history that way, having created a PDF and I found out the apostrophes turned into double apostrophes for some reason through PDF and we had to go in and correct it.
Tom: Oh yeah, stuff like that happens. When I’m working on my webpage, sometimes I type things in Word and then I transfer my webpage, and it makes an @ symbol instead of a bullet of something.
Tom: So you need to make sure you go back and proof it. But once you save it as a PDF, it should stay in that format when you send it to somebody else. And one really neat thing about PDFs that a lot of people don’t know about, if you have a huge photo album and you want to send it to somebody, but you didn’t do TIFFs, because you knew they were too big, so you did jpegs and they’re really good quality, but they’re big also, they don’t need the quality. They’re not going to be making big prints out of it.
Tom: Then you can take all those photos that are separate photos, go into the edit mode where it say “create a PDF from other files or folders” go and select all those files, it will go take all the photos, make them into one big file, and then if it’s still too big, which it’s probably not, you can go in and ask for a reduced size PDF, which is even smaller.
Tom: And PNGs are so much bigger than PDFs, which most people think is the opposite way around.
Fisher: Um hmm.
Tom: But PDFs are great. I know a sign company that we work with that that’s what they require is to send them. It has to be full size, but we send them PDFs and they look beautiful.
Fisher: Wow! Well, that’s great a tip, Tom, because I don’t think we’ve ever talked about that before. But I think that could save people a lot of trouble. Thanks for coming on. We’ll see you again next week.
Tom: My pleasure.
Fisher: And that is a wrap for this week’s show. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks once again to Paul Woodbury from LegacyTree.com for coming on and answering some of those common questions that we get about DNA. Maybe you want to listen to it again on the podcast, catch it on iTunes, iHeart Radio, ExtremeGenes.com and TuneIn Radio. Don’t forget also to sign up for our Weekly Genie newsletter at ExtremeGenes.com. All through the month of June, people who sign up are entered to win a free DNA kit. Talk to you again next week. Thanks for joining us. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we’re a nice, normal family!
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